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 Beginner question deluxe

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Kareru

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Join date : 2010-06-28
Age : 34
Location : Cape Town, Vredehoek

PostSubject: Beginner question deluxe   Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:44 am

Alright, I've been encouraged to post some of my grammar questions here.
Any help from anybody, fellow beginner to master linguist would be awesome.
(this will be a stupid question)

I'm at the end of JFBP1, and going over the book to just cement the grammar, but I'm worried that I might be too rigid in my memorization:
There are sentence structures that I suspect might be more flexible than I imagine:

ex. 3じまで ここで いても いいですか?
may I say: ここで 3じまで いても いいですか?
I guess it does seem to shift the emphasis/focus a little...


More examples of such a sentence:

スミスさんは きょねん にほんに ひとりで きました。
vs. スミスさんは きょねん ひとりで にほんに きました。

どうして きょう びょういんは 12じまで ですか?
vs. どうして びょういんは きょう 12じまで ですか?
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haku

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Join date : 2010-05-05
Age : 28
Location : Cape Town

PostSubject: Re: Beginner question deluxe   Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:48 pm

Apart from a few specifics, Japanese word order isn't TOO rigid. Sentences should always follow S-O-V word order, and the topic must come before the subject, object before verb. It also sounds more natural if time comes before manner before place in terms of adverbs.

So, with your example sentences, its best to bear in mind what the verbs are referring to, because sentences are a lot easier to understand when a verb and its object are next to each other. So: 3じまで ここで いても いいですか? is more natural
same with スミスさんは きょねん ひとりで にほんに きました; and どうして びょういんは きょう 12じまで ですか?
Remember though, that its not a RULE with adverbs, so the other sentences aren't incorrect, but just sound less natural. Especially with verbs relating to movement, it makes sense to put the "place" right before the verb because thats what its really referring to.

er. hope thats not too confusing
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Kareru

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PostSubject: Re: Beginner question deluxe   Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:15 am

Great! No, it makes total sense, and actually,
I think it will sort itself out in time, if I keep practicing forming sentences in casual conversation. To get that sense of: "Eish that's not wrong but it sounds like I'm a newby" lol

Thanks for the help.
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haku

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PostSubject: Re: Beginner question deluxe   Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:29 pm

ok so that was kind of an average reply so allow me to elaborate.

firstly in the sentence 3じまで ここで いても いいですか?, you should actually be using the particle に, since both います and あります take that as a particle. Next, like I mentioned in my previous post shifting word order really changes emphasis, and the natural order with a sentence like the one above is to put the place next to the verb since thats really what is most relevant to a verb like います。When you put ここ at the start of the sentence then what you are doing is emphasising that as the most important part of the sentence. Like I said earlier though , apart from the particle error, changing around the word order in the sentence is grammatically correct, but there is a more "natural" order, and shifting words changes the emphasis.
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